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Tuesday, September 19, 2006

Torture

Moved here.


J

6 comments:

paul asjes said...

he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

paul asjes said...

"There is no easy way to create a world where men and women can live together, where each has his own job and house and where all children receive as much educatio nas their minds can absorb. But if shuch a world is created in our lifetime, it will be ... acomplished by bersons who have the courage to put an end to suffering by willingly suffering themselves rather than inflict suffering upon others. It will be done by rejecting the racism, materialism and violence that has characterized Western civilization and especially by working toward a world of brotherhood, cooperation and peace."
-Martin Luther King Junior "Nonviolence: The Only Road to Freedom"

This may sound idealisitic, and I know he is not talking about fanatical terrorists, but I think the message of choosing to suffer as opposed to inflicting suffering is True. Evil does not overcome evil. Anger and hate bread anger and hate. Revenge spurs on more revenge. You cannot break a cycle by continuing a cycle.

The battle is not againse flesh and blood...

Jack H said...

Greetings Paul. So here's a what-if. Your mother or sister or girl friend has been kidnapped, buried alive, and has 12 hours to live. Or put in the chopping machine, on slow setting. You have the bad guy. What? Ask him nicely? Appeal to his conscience? Pray? You may have noticed that God allowes these things. Sort of sits on his hands. I have reason to know that prayers get answered with a painful, destructive NO. As for relying on the transformability of villains, we know that evil is a cause just the same as righteousness is. Satan is unredeemable. Some consciences are seared. Some men have orgasms at the sight of tears. Meantime the blades of the chopping machine are spinning.

Is God not violent? Does Jesus not come with a sword? And of course, "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil." (Rom 13:3,4) Seems that laws, like scriptures, are not of private interpretation. God loves mercy. I think he loves it for the innocent, not for those given over to evil.

And notice how MLK attacks "Western Civilization"? Yeah, all those other Civilizations are characterized by being so much better, so much more peaceful and nonviolent. Or not. And of course the system he fought so peacefully against was fundamentally good. It's not so hard to be Gandhi when you're facing the British. You'd be Gandhi with the Nazis for about 15 seconds, and then you'd be machine-gunned down, or starving in a concentration camp. There's a difference between starving and fasting.

I'm glad you see the references are not to terrorists. But in my post I was utterly clear to distinguish between the suffering we choose for ourselves, and that which we allow or prevent for those we're resposible for. Evil doesn't overcome evil. But that doesn't address my theme. If torture is evil, tell me why and how. The sword is not evil. Men are evil. You break a cycle by breaking it. The cycle of kidnapping is broken by killing the kidnappers. What, you think they have rational motives?


J

Rantin' Ron said...

Brilliant Jack. Just plain brilliant. I'm in awe.

If I was smarter than you well...I would simply be smarter than you I suppose.

I'm not sure I would be as articulate as you but....damn it, I WOULD at least, be smarter than you!!

Sadly, I am quite satisfied with that.

I know....I'm pathetic.

paul asjes said...

don't get me wrong, i laughed out loud when jack baur shot someone's wife in the leg to get them to talk. i never give you MY arguements, because i hardly ever disagree with you. and if i did i don't know if i would tell you because i would be afraid i would be talked out of my position in an instant.

"It's not so hard to be Gandhi when you're facing the British." o my gosh, you are funny.

i hadn't been to your site in forever, but it was good to come back and see that you are just as "jack h" as ever.

and most of life is a "what-if" for me anyways.

Jack H said...

RR -- yes, I believe I did hear once about a person who actually might have been smarter than I. His head exploded. My own head is perpetually tilted to one side -- my brain is so large, you see (I feel I need to explain that). Hyper-intelligence is such a burden -- literally ... the "burden" I just referred to would be my gigantic brain (I feel I need to explain that). My eyes are exophthalmic, like a chihuahua's, because there's so little room inside my skull -- because of my gigantic brain (was my clarification clear to you?). And no, you are not pathetic. I am in a position to know, what with my gigantic brain and hyperintelligence and exophthalmic eyeballs. What can remain hidden to me?

;-)

PA -- Glad to hear you're hardly ever wrong. Tee hee.

It's a serious thing, torture, as I say. But just as pleasure has a purpose, so does pain. If sex didn't feel good, the human population would number in the thousands, rather than the billions. And if pain didn't hurt, the population would be zero. Wheels within wheels.


J