Monday, May 15, 2006

Gog and Magog

I've mentioned here and there something about my work in reconstructing ancient chronology. Briefly, and I haven't said this before, I think Velikovsky is pretty much correct in his views of the Egyptian New Kingdom and following. Wrong, before that, and this is where my original work has been done.

The point is, someone left a comment in, of all places, Confessions, to the effect that China was Gog and Magog, and would destroy the world. I've moved my comment/response to here:

Greetings, LP. I'm not sure if this is a real question, but I'll give it a real answer. I've actually done a fair bit of work on the topic.

First, Gog/Magog have no relation to China. Magog was the child of Japheth, who is counted as the progenator of those of European lineage. It's pretty detailed, and I won't go into it, but the ancients did keep pretty clear records, or at least traditions, about their own heritage, and that of their neighbors.

1. So, Gomer is the founder of the Cimmerians [Gimirraya (Assyr), Kimmerioi (Gr)]: Homer reports they were N of the Black Sea; on the Caspian; they moved S from Caucasus homeland into Asia, but Esarhaddon defeated them, as the Gimirrai (c. 670s BC), and they turned west into Asia Minor, settled in Cappadocia.

a. Ashchenaz linked with the Scythians, per Herodotus; the settled in Russia, known as Kurgans; (originally?) in Armenia, Askuza, Ashguzai, Ishkuzai (Assyr), ally of Mannai "Ararat" against Assyria in 600's BC (noted in Jer 51:27); settled in Bythinia and Pontus (S coast of Black Sea); Lake Ascanius, land of Ascania; Homer reports prince of Mysia and Phrygia named "Ascanios"; Rheginians (Josephus); linked to Germanics ("Aschenazi" Jews are German).

b. Riphath settled in Russia, re the Riphean Mountain range. Cited by Plin, Mello, Solinus, Josephus/

c. Togarmah is the Phrygians, per Josephus, related to the Armenians (their founder is Haik, son of Thorgom). REferenced in Ezek 27: 14, traded with Tyre. Located in Turkey, but not of course Turks. Transported by the Assyrians to Gual.

2. Madia is the Medes, no small people, although largely forgotten. Perhaps related to the Kurds

3. Tiras is the Thracians, Etrscans, Trojans, said to be ruddy and blue-eyed.

4. Magog is the Sythans - assimilated by Gomer, per Josephus, located NE of the Caspian.

5. Tubal, known to the Assyrians as Tabali, Josephus has them as Iberians in Georgia, remembered in modern capital of Tblisis

6. Meshech [Mushki (As), Moschi (Gr)] is paired with Tubal; settled in E Phrygia. Later linked to Moscow - ancient city "among them" called Mazaca.

That's more than you wanted, but the point of it is to demonstrate that these names and peoples are in no way unique to or invented by the Bible. They are located North of the Middle East, not in the Far East. The Cimmerians, and later the Celts, had a presences in Central Asia, and perhaps farther, but this is insufficient to make them the Chinese. To find the Chinese in the Bible, we would first have them as a Hamitic people, and the best identification I have made is as the Sinim - hense, Sinitic or Sino- as a prefix for Chinese. The Sinim would have originally settled in a non-arid Arabia after the Scatter of Babel, and then traveled eastward.

To find the Chinese in the end times, I suppose they would be the Sons of the East, although I noticed recnetly the Sons of the East, in Judges as I recall (but haven't relocated it), as coming out of Midian, Medina - making them Arabs.


The identification of Magog as Chinese seems to be a Marco Polo thing.

So, to your question about the Chinese destroying the world, I'm sure they have their role, but it isn't as
king Gog or Magog.



ELAshley said...

Velikovsky's World's in Collision is what got me started in wanting to know more about bible history. It made absolutely perfect sense to me that if the sun and moon stood still in the sky so Joshua and the Israelites could avenge themselves on their enemies, it stood to reason that on the other side of the earth, someone was more than a little upset that the sun did not rise when it should have. How many virgins did they sacrifice to appease whatever gods they worshipped?

My father gave me that book hoping to dissuade me from my Christian beliefs, but I figured... even if all this was true, and the sun and moon standing still in the sky was a natural phenomenon, as were all the miracles of Moses' time, how did Joshua know that calling out to God at that precise moment would grant him the miracle he believed in faith that God would grant? How could he know?

It may have all been natural but someone set the universe in motion at the exact moment required for Joshua's miracle to be there.

Happenstance alone cannot account for this. The odds against it are astronomically huge.

God Himself is therefore the only reasonable answer.

Jack H said...

Given the apparent cyclic nature of these encounters (it varies, but often on a 40 year orbit), the Long Day was just (one of) the closest and most severe of these celestial encounters. A naturalistic explanation for Joshua's knowledge would be that he could predict the event, as with an eclipse. We are no more Jews than Greeks - no need for wonders, or mere knowledge. But they help, don't they.